[Infinity]

Hello everyone,

Recently, I've seen alot of threads regarding JunkBusters pop up on the forum, which got me thinking if it would be an idea to 'revive' it, but in my way. Here's a quick rundown of what it might look like, would I decide to actually do it.


Anti-Cheat
The most important part of it all is the Anti-Cheat itself. I've worked for some rather large communities in the past, where I've learned quite a lot about cheats, and how to detect them scriptwise.

The AC itself would be distributed as a closed-source plugin. Why closed? First of all, it gives me the upper hand over cheaters. Would they be able to see the code, then they could discover and abuse exploits in it. The second reason is that I don't want the users to tamper with the code. I'll explain this later on.

The newer versions would be distributed and made by me. (Perhaps a small group of helpers will be involved, but these will be handpicked by me, if necessary)

With the plugin comes some sort of Filterscript/include, in which settings for the AC can be adjusted. (Turn of some parts of the anticheat, so you wouldn't be banned for having a minigun in a minigun minigame for example.)


Global Bans
One of the most important feature of this all is the global bans list. Apart from the plugin and filterscript/include, I will also host a site/server (with a forum perhaps?) with on it a database containing various bans made across servers using my AC.

Some things you need to know about this:
- This list will contain bans made by my AC, and my AC alone. Bans made by ingame admins/other anticheats etc. will not be added. (This is the foremost reason I don't want the code to be tampered with. I want the entries to be as reliable as possible)
- When a player joins a server using this anticheat, a combination of his name, IP and various other things will be compared to information listed in the database. Would you already be banned on a server for Health Hacking, for example, then you will be unable to join any other server using my AC.
- I, or perhaps a staff member (if I have any), can adjust the site to not accept anymore listings from your server, would we find that you are doing something wrong. (Getting people banned on purpose, for example.)
- On this site, a banned person would be able to appeal the ban. Although I'm not entirely sure how I'm going to handle this yet. (Regarding involvement of the various server owners, as it's my code that's doing the banning of course.)


More info and questions
I'm sure some of you may doubt my reliability when it comes to handing you a closed source file. Who says it's safe? Well, I kinda made up my mind about the closed source thing, so you'd just have to take my word for it.

Any questions regarding this can be made below. My question to you guys is:
Is there any need for such a system?
And if so, do you have any suggestions?

[Joe Staff]

Throw in a server to server chat system (rcon admin only)

[seanny]

Alot of Anti-Cheats dont have NOP Detection, Add detection for NOP Hacks, Infact NGRP Anti-Cheat is the only Anti-Cheat that I know that has NOP Detection.

[Joe Staff]

What's NOP?

[Saurik]

Saurik supports this ! Good idea +1


If these faggot hackers get globally banned they will feel really bad which will make me happy.

[seanny]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Staff What's NOP?

it is hacks that allow you to Bypass certain features such as:

pawn Code:

RemovePlayerFromVehicle
TogglePlayerControllable
SetPlayerPos

and more....

[brett7]

The old sprunkbuster system was like this but it just sort of died. Also I don't know how you would decide what servers would be able to add bans to the database.

[Bakr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinity I've worked for some rather large communities in the past, where I've learned quite a lot about cheats, and how to detect them scriptwise.

It's a fine idea, however, if you're talking about jServers about your prior experience here as a "large community" and it having even a borderline decent anti-cheat system, think again. There were countless innocent bans and inconsistent flaws in the anti-cheats over the scripts distributed in that community that it was sickening.

Someone who would be much more qualified to create this system, such as JernejL, who has REAL experience with anti-cheat detection, would be a better option.

[Joe Staff]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bakr It's a fine idea, however, if you're talking about jServers about your prior experience here as a "large community" and it having even a borderline decent anti-cheat system, think again. There were countless innocent bans and inconsistent flaws in the anti-cheats over the scripts distributed in that community that it was sickening. Someone who would be much more qualified to create this system, such as JernejL, who has REAL experience with anti-cheat detection, would be a better option.

It doesn't matter who makes it, I could easily abuse the system and ban who ever I want

[Bakr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Staff It doesn't matter who makes it, I could easily abuse the system and ban who ever I want

There is obviously SOME experience necessary, regardless of how limited, to create this sort of system to make it at least somewhat effective. In my personal opinion from previous active work I've seen from the OP, I don't think he's the best choice (far from it).

[Calgon]

You'd only succeed if you had a popular name behind the project, look at SprunkBuster - Woet was one of the most popular people in SA-MP at the time (despite how many people disliked him), he seemed trustworthy enough to maintain a global ban database.

[Infinity]

Quote:

Originally Posted by brett7 The old sprunkbuster system was like this but it just sort of died. Also I don't know how you would decide what servers would be able to add bans to the database.

I'm still thinking about that. Like I said, the idea is still pretty rough around the dges. Fact is, you can't just trust the admins of every random server that uses it, so I have to make it rely on it's build in Anti cheat, which means the built in AC would have to be foolproof.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bakr It's a fine idea, however, if you're talking about jServers about your prior experience here as a "large community" and it having even a borderline decent anti-cheat system, think again. There were countless innocent bans and inconsistent flaws in the anti-cheats over the scripts distributed in that community that it was sickening. Someone who would be much more qualified to create this system, such as JernejL, who has REAL experience with anti-cheat detection, would be a better option.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bakr There is obviously SOME experience necessary, regardless of how limited, to create this sort of system to make it at least somewhat effective. In my personal opinion from previous active work I've seen from the OP, I don't think he's the best choice (far from it).

Although I see your point, I'm wondering if you posted this out of your grudge towards jS or just for the thread itself.
Anyway, apart from "learning about various types of hacks" I didn't count jS itself as prior experience. I haven't scripted for any of jS's servers, apart from my own gamemode. (which never got released).
And, although I didn't really want to make a list of where I've gained this experience, one major factor is jS's side-community Son of Mini-Missions. This is where I grew the most in scripting. Apart from that, I've aided several smaller servers and communities.

But, I get your point. There's probably dozens of people who are more qualified than I am. JernejL is a good example. And somewhere out there, there are probably scripters who are even more qualified. But they aren't doing this. (For as far as I can tell)
Furthermore, one of the reasons I made this thread is to see if there's actually any need for a system like this. I'm not going to invest a huge amount of time into something nobody will end up using. Because, if I'm actually going to do this, I will take this as serious as it gets. I will have to invest a fair amount of time into researching different cheats, thinking of + creating ways to detect them, creating the database + the site + everything related, and continuously test the ssytem, to make sure the AC is as foolproof as possible. believe me, I may not be the best scripter around (not even close), but would I do something as big as this, then I'd take this as serious as possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by linuxthefish -1 from me, it will fail somehow

Please explain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calgon You'd only succeed if you had a popular name behind the project, look at SprunkBuster - Woet was one of the most popular people in SA-MP at the time (despite how many people disliked him), he seemed trustworthy enough to maintain a global ban database.

I see where you're getting at. And I don't see a way of overcoming this at the moment. Would I make this, then I'd probably have to get it known by hear-say, or something.

[[MM]IKKE]

I wouldn't know if this will work out, and I don't think anyone can tell so. It's like *******, popular in USA, but here nobody uses it. Or Yahoo!. And so on...but it IS a nice idea if the anti-cheat is accurate (fake kill-proof eg) and if there's still a way to unban appeal in a proper way. Many people have dynamic IPs, if the database gets big enough, there might be some people banned because they've got the same IP as some other hacker.

A suggestion on the system might be to involve some of the owners of the big "oldschool" servers or famous scripters. Show (parts of) the script to Blacklite, littlewhiteys, Y_Less, Zh3r0, ... They are trustable (trustable as in "they won't give away the scripts"), reliable and they are big names in the community. If THEY are interested in it, if they are positive about the script and if they implement it into their servers (ikr didn't mention much servers/owners), smaller servers might implement it as well.

Additionnally, you will need a team of about 4 people (if it gets popular) to scan the server applications to implement it, check the bans, sort the unban appeals, ...

About unban appeals: I don't know about your scripting skills at that point, but you might be able to connect a 'bot' which sends the appeals to the appropriate site. Eg I post an unban appeal on the main site, marking the server on which I got banned, then the appeal will automatically be sent to the the site of the particular server, and then any reply on one of those two forums will be posted on the other one by the bot. Sync'ing the forums thus. And also the other way around, if someone appeals a ban on that server forum (and if it's made by your system), the 'bot' will copy it to the main unban forum. But this will be hard, as there will be a lot of idiots who 'don't know' where they got banned or just don't care to correctly fill in the appeal.

Another thing I just thought of would be to make it compare the appeal IPs/nicknames to the database, so the information stores will be automatically posted with the appeal. Like, just a field 'nickname' and 'why you want to be unbanned', and the rest is given by the database itself.

Regards,
-[MM]IKKE

[DirtyLilFreak]

This would be an great idea. Well many servers have problems with hackers. :S

[Mrkrabz]

I can see this being hugely helpful to many servers, however I think it would be a better idea to do a trial run with all servers being able to ban. However I see that being exploited pretty quickly. I think It would be better to let the more known servers ban people, which would be more trustworthy and clean for other servers (Of course that means less bans tho).

Also, for the trust part, I would particularly trust you just now, but if possible you could get the source 'confirmed' from another member such as JernejL or other beta testers.

[Oh]

Well I could understand how this could work, there shouldn't be just some servers that'll ban them. I think the system would have to ban them for them to actually go on the banned list.

[[MM]IKKE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrkrabz I think It would be better to let the more known servers ban people, which would be more trustworthy and clean for other servers (Of course that means less bans tho).

That's why JunkBuster SprunkBuster died I guess...a lot of false bans, only a few servers who could add bans, ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrkrabz I can see this being hugely helpful to many servers, however I think it would be a better idea to do a trial run with all servers being able to ban. However I see that being exploited pretty quickly.

It is closed source, like the original post said...which means Infinity himself makes an anti-cheat script, uneditable by the server owners who use it. Other, "regular" bans will not be recorded by the system, thus preventing abuse.

Yet another reason why JunkBuster failed, no anti-hack system included. It used to ban a lot of players in the original Mini-Missions because of a bugged money hack system. And almost nobody got an unban because the owner left sa:mp and you know Woet, he only takes formal information...The head-admin got banned and had to beg for an unban because the owner didn't "confirm there's a bug", although everyone knew it. Anyhow that's another story

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrkrabz Also, for the trust part, I would particularly trust you just now, but if possible you could get the source 'confirmed' from another member such as JernejL or other beta testers.

Basically ^what I said

Well, now I started thinking about it, I'm thinking more and more of this idea failing a lot. Not because of you, but because we're humans. People, server owners, will have to trust every ban made by the system. Their player count decreases (slightly) because some people hack on other, concurrential servers. Or imagine (this actually did happen before) an admin of your server hacking onto another server, suddenly being unable to join his own server. I just think people won't like the idea of less players because there are hackers on another server.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oh Well I could understand how this could work, there shouldn't be just some servers that'll ban them. I think the system would have to ban them for them to actually go on the banned list.

^what the original post said.

[Oh]

Oh I wasn't talking to him I should've quoted me text it was the guy saying only a few servers should be able to be able to add global bans. Which I think if you hacked on any server it's unfair, unless if you're a developer or admin I don't see the point of hacking in a server. I'm currently with JunkBuster and bans alot of my players for weapon hacks, and most of the time it doesn't work but it's what holding off the real weapon hackers (miniguns etc.).

[Mrkrabz]

I know what you mean, but I'm talking about exploits to get around the ban for example, the server gives you a weapon or something but then the AC bans you for it adding you globally. I'm sure there's a work around for this tho.

[Calgon]

Why does everyone keep confusing JunkBuster for SprunkBuster?